File Name: aristotle and xenophon on democracy and oligarchy james moore.zip
This topic is currently marked as "dormant"—the last message is more than 90 days old. You can revive it by posting a reply. Home Groups Talk More Zeitgeist. Peloponnesian War recommended reading. I've been reading Kagan's History of the Peloponnesian War and I'm looking for recommendations for further reading. I'm going to read the Landmark Thucydides and Xenophon next. I will also be reading de Ste. Croix's Origins of the Peloponnesian War. I want to read Plutarch after that.
Any preferred editions? Should I take a crack at Aristophanes? Where should I head next in the secondary literature? I'm interested in the democracy vs. One limiting factor is that I would like to acquire the book rather than gave to track it down in an academic library. Of course, I can be convinced otherwise if something is deemed essential. What Plutarch do you want to read, March-Hare? I mean, is it lives relating to Classical Athens you want or is it for Plutarch himself?
If it's for Plutarch himself, you'd want his lives paired he typically wrote one Greek, one Roman life as parallel lives. I don't know of such an edition unless you want to buy the old and tedious Clough revision of the 'Dryden' edition not by Dryden , published in the old Everyman series.
The lovely Nonesuch Press edition of that would be a delight to read, if a little pricey to track down. A classic of English renaissance literature. Or you could try the Loebs: look on the Loeb thread for a public domain PDF library which will give you an idea of the style of those. I've not looked at them myself. I'm not exactly a scholar on this period, so I'd be interested to see what secondary works others suggest. One thing I can add, though, is that in reading Thucydides and any modern authors who rely heavily on him This doesn't really make Thucydides much different than most other authors in antiquity, but considering that 5th century Athens tends to be held up as the golden age of democracy, we have a tendency to just accept everything Athenian at face value, because "they're the good guys.
It would be like if the only main historical source future generations had about America of the last 15 years was written by a combination of Donald Trump and David Petraeus; the broad outline and most of the facts would be correct, but any sidebars are liable to be highly influenced by a very specific worldview. Thucydides--with his obvious disdain for "the mob" and vilification of popular politicians--is much the same.
Kagan's History of the Peloponnesian War is wonderful, although you need to take into account that his right-wing interpretation of Classical politics vs. As a historian of the Peloponnesian War, however, he is unmatched. If you liked the single volume popular history, may I recommend his four volume scholarly set. The first volume is "The Origins of the Peloponnesian War," which is truly masterful. Another great Kagan book is Thucydides: The Reinvention of History , which focuses on the Thucydides's deliberate distortions.
I take issue with some of Kagan's arguments, but it is well worth reading. I have also read parts but not entirely from the following highly regarded books: The Origins of the Peloponnesian War by De Ste.
If you want to learn what the Athenians were really like in that period, do not overlook Courtesans and Fishcakes by Davidson and The Honey and the Hemlock by Sagan. If you are interested in Sparta, Paul Cartledge is the author to seek, although he likes them far more than I do. Also any book by Peter Green is wonderful to get a true sense of the Classical Period. Full disclosure: I consider Athens to be the aggressor in the conflict and Pericles to be a terrible leader who basically doomed his polis with his brinksmanship and flawed strategies; in this I part from Kagan and many other historians of the period and the conflict.
For the most part, this actually helps, as it makes him more critical in crucially important ways -- but sometimes, he can be a little too critical in the wrong ways, too. But in the context of the Peloponnesian War, you will probably find the Archanians and Lysistrata most useful. An excellent choice would be the Penguin volume Lysistrata and Other Plays translated by Alan Sommerstein which contains both and, in addition, the Clouds , which satirizes Socrates.
Alan Sommerstein has done commentaries on the Greek text of all Aristophanes' plays and probably knows as much as anyone about his writing. His separate commentaries on the Lysistrata and the Archanians published by Aris and Philips would be good companions if you wanted to go into detail and if you have access to an academic library they have English translations facing a Greek text as well as the commentary - I can't tell you whether the translations are the same ones he presents in the Penguin volume, though.
For context you might use with profit Kenneth Dover's Aristophanic Comedy and perhaps more precisely useful but not such a good intro to Aistophanes MacDowell's Aristophanes and Athens. Russo's Aristophanes: An Author for the Stage original title Aristofane: autore di teatro would be more useful if you wanted to read him for ancient theatre rather than historical context.
PS: I forgot the Knights with its satire against Cleon. I don't like his translations much, but McLeish's first volume of Aristophanes includes all three. Or you could find it in a second Penguin, The Birds and Other Plays some translated by Sommerstein, some by David Barrett , some of the other plays in the volume having something to do with the war the escapist Birds and the topical Peace of BC. And he omits a lot. He delivers a very brief, sanitized version of the years of the First Peloponnesian War and the years leading up to the second.
He barely mentions Megara, a strategic geography that is, in my view, the true linchpin for the cause of the war. He admires Pericles so much that he downplays the blockheaded moves Pericles makes that makes war inevitable. At his best, Thucydides tells a timeless tale of how stupid and brutal people can be in a war, and all the wrong turns a democracy can make in trying to manage it, but Thucydides has his own point of view -- according to Kagan's book Thucydides: The Reinvention of History he is the first revisionist.
I agree with Kagan's argument, by the way, while I differ with some of his points. Kagan is his own revisionist, as well. If they weren't, then there's no point in their writing anything. Revising history is what historians do. But people who read Thucudides, because he is also seen as a primary source, often treat his version of the Peloponnesian War as gospel. It is critical to remind the reader that this is not the case.
Primary source? He lived it and and described it as he saw things. It's just his take on things. Indeed Matt, but think about all those who came before us who treated it as gospel? And every person I meet who reads Thucydides for the first time seems to adopt his point of view.
Sure, and I get it: sources are limited. We will never know how ancient Egyptians actually dressed, not for sure that is, even though we have some evidence. Oh wow! Thanks for all of the helpful replies. I can see there will be more items hitting my TBR pile when I sort through the other recommendations.
How much of this is about Thucydides distortions? I glanced at it in a bookstore and it seemed to be mostly a summary of the war itself so I passed. I saw it on Amazon. It was a little pricey so I wasn't sure if I should take a chance. If you haven't read everything Kagan's ever written on the war -- of if you have -- read Thucydides: The Reinvention of History -- it is a summary to some degree but if focuses primarily on how Thucydides structures the text to deliver his point his view, including omissions, distortions, etc.
The Meiggs book is an encyclopedic tour de force. I have not read it cover to cover but used it for grad research papers. It's pricey. The original OUP hardback was naturally costly and it didn't come out in paperback. Then Sandpiper did a cheap hardback edition in the late nineties for OUP - that's my copy. Finally OUP republished it as a print on demand paperback at an extortionate price more than three times the price of the Sandpiper hardback and that's what you'll buy if you order it new.
I'd get it via a library if you can. Oh, Thucydideans - is Cornfield's Thucydides Mythistoricus still worth reading? It's been a few years since I read it but I liked it a lot. As I recall the narrative is to a large extent based on Thucydides' history. Aristotle's work is available in a Penguin translation by P. I'd go for the Penguin for its introduction and more up-to-date translation. The Xenophonic Constitution and the Old Oligarch you can find in a single Loeb volume Xenophon: Scripta Minora which also includes his manual for cavalry commanders and his books on horsemanship and on hunting.
In addition, you might read some political or politically-motivated speeches. Again, Penguin came up with a useful and reasonably short volume, Greek Political Oratory , which contains speeches by a number of speech-writers and orators: Thucydides Pericles' funeral oration, I'm not sure what else , Andocides who was implicated in the mutilation of the herms just before the Sicilian expedition , Lysias who wrote a speech for the accusers of Andocides, and who--though a metic, a non-Athenian resident of Athens--took an active part in the restoration of the democracy in Athens and several others including Demosthenes writing at the time of Philip of Macedon's rise to power in Greece in the second half of the fourth century.
Unfortunately my own copy is in a box somewhere and I can't remember precisely which works and authors it contains. And I don't know of any other anthology of Athenian political rhetoric. There's also a very useful Cambridge Companion to Ancient Greek Political Thought if you wanted to take this study further. The book really concentrates on fifth and fourth-century Greece, so Thucydides, Plato and Aristotle loom large.
Oh, a last book: The Athenian Empire LACTOR 1 -- publishers link and Bryn Mawr review --edited by Robin Osborne has lots of source materials on the Athenian empire including inscriptional materials in translation and literary sources, including excerpts from many that we've discussed. It's not expensive. Thanks for all of the helpful posts Shikari. I managed to snag a used copy of Meiggs that was reasonably priced. I'll probably head for the Penguin volumes you suggested after I read Thucydides and Xenophon.
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This topic is currently marked as "dormant"—the last message is more than 90 days old. You can revive it by posting a reply. Home Groups Talk More Zeitgeist. Peloponnesian War recommended reading. I've been reading Kagan's History of the Peloponnesian War and I'm looking for recommendations for further reading. I'm going to read the Landmark Thucydides and Xenophon next.
Read PDF Aristotle And Xenophon On Democracy And Oligarchy. Aristotle And Xenophon On James Sickinger, author of Public. Records and documents from ancient Greece, Dr. Moore has produced an authoritative work of the highest.
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There was one I had to let go-Kylie. There are about six hundred public defenders in the system? Most pressing of which was: Who killed Teresa Stone. We are heading to the Hussades and all I could think of was my own safety. They were so sure of themselves and sure that they were dispensing the greatest wisdom, I sought other means.
Меган? - позвал. Ответа не последовало. - Меган. Беккер подошел и громко постучал в дверцу. Тишина. Он тихонько толкнул дверь, и та отворилась.
Из Испании опять пришли плохие новости - не от Дэвида Беккера, а от других, которых он послал в Севилью. В трех тысячах миль от Вашингтона мини-автобус мобильного наблюдения мчался по пустым улицам Севильи. Он был позаимствован АНБ на военной базе Рота в обстановке чрезвычайной секретности.
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